The Pope, the cardinals, women, and the Interdict

“We have not listened enough to the voice of women in the Church”. From this observation, Pope Francis made the unprecedented decision to have the cardinals of his Council, the so-called C9, reflect on the issue of women. Not alone, however. Rather, together with women, who were invited to engage in a free, frank, and authentic dialogue with the highest ecclesiastical authorities. The Pope is convinced that “the Church still has much to learn from them”. In the months between the two sessions of the Synod on Synodality, the Pope entrusted Salesian nun and theologian Linda Pocher with organizing a series of formation meetings on the subject.

“We had met in 2022 when he asked me for an in-depth study of Hans Urs von Balthasar's thought, which I had studied extensively. A year later, in June 2023, he contacted me again,” says Sister Pocher. “He gave me complete freedom in the structure of the entire proposal, starting with the selection of topics and invited speakers. The Pope gave me only three guiding adjectives regarding the approach to develop: functional, administrative, and ministerial”. The theologian interpreted these in a series of four sessions scheduled between December 2023 and June 2024, the reports of which are contained in four books published by Paoline. These sessions, with an interdisciplinary perspective, aimed to highlight the various aspects of the topic and combine the most urgent issues with some fundamental knots that need to be unraveled. “These latter issues”, she explains, “from a long-term perspective, could prove to be much more fruitful sources of innovation than the first”.

Linda Pocher, thereafter, involved eight people—seven women and one man—with different expertise, backgrounds, and sensitivities, who could offer a plurality of perspectives. The Brazilian and Afro-descendant Regina da Costa Pedro of the Missionary Congregation of the Immaculate-PIME; the priest and theologian Luca Castiglioni; the consecrated member of the Ordo Virginum and teacher Giuliva Di Berardino; the canonist, Donata Horak; the theologian Stella Morra; the economist Valentina Rotondi; the president of the Coordination of Italian Theologians Lucia Vantini; and, the Anglican bishop Jo Wells.  The journey began with a critical discussion of Balthasar's Marian-Petrine principle, which has inspired recent papacies. This was followed without hesitation to the tackling of the debate on ministries, the influence of cultural factors, and, finally, what Michel Foucault referred to as the interdict, the theme of power.

“I confess, I was worried when I received the invitation. Sister Linda kept reassuring me that it would be a simple, informal meeting. Moreover, truly, contrary to what I had thought, it was. Starting with the venue, which was a room in Casa Santa Marta,” says Sister Regina, the only non-European in the group, who had been invited to discuss culture alongside Stella Morra. “They welcomed me with great warmth. Against all expectations, I felt incredibly at ease. They seated us across from the Pope, his secretary, and Cardinal Pietro Parolin. The other cardinals were positioned on the sides. They gave us ample time to speak—around forty minutes each—and listened to us with great attention. They were genuinely interested, as evidenced by the many questions they asked us. Francis, for example, asked what we thought were the roots of clericalism and the causes of resistance to a more significant presence of women. The Secretary of State asked if the request for recognition might conceal a desire for power. I found him very sincere; he voiced a doubt that lingers among many men in the Church”.

“Just an anecdote to describe the atmosphere”, echoes Donata Horak, who, along with Valentina Rotondi, focused on the subject of power. “When the meeting ended, I stayed in the corridor waiting for a colleague; the Pope, already in the elevator, stepped out and came back to me because ‘it’s not proper to leave before the guests have gone’”.

The canon lawyer chose not to deliver a formal speech. “Of course, I had written down my reflections. However, I preferred to speak extemporaneously, so the space would be one of genuine listening and real discussion. The cardinals are different from one another—they have diverse positions and perspectives and come from very different cultural backgrounds. We engaged in an open and frank dialogue about issues such as the reform of canon law and certain ecclesial dynamics”.

“I will never forget the emotion I felt walking into that room,” emphasizes Valentina Rotondi. “I had accepted and prepared my intervention without fully realizing the exceptional nature of the moment I was about to experience. Once there, it hit me. Pope Francis, to help me relax, joked about me bringing him a little grandchild to distract him. He was referring to my two-month-old baby, who was in another room being cared for by my brother-in-law. He addressed me informally, as he did with everyone there—not out of disrespect but to foster fraternity and sorority. I immediately felt at ease”.

“When I received the invitation, I thought it was a joke”, adds Bishop Jo Wells, who was invited along with Giuliva Di Berardino to discuss ministries. “However, once I found myself at Santa Marta, I was struck by how ordinary everything felt. As soon as we stepped into the meeting, which was already underway, Pope Francis stood up to welcome us. After introductions, he handed over the leadership to Sister Linda, a remarkable gesture of trust and freedom. The Jesuit model of discernment was very evident, especially when she began the session with a brief moment of prayer, asking the Holy Spirit to guide our listening and learning. I couldn’t help but note the irony: a woman was already leading the prayers and worship”.

That same morning, Giuliva Di Berardino felt no hesitation in advocating before the Pope and the Council for the possibility of opening the diaconate to women. “I can’t deny that I felt a great sense of responsibility in presenting my proposal, knowing that many women had (and have) significant expectations about this issue,” she says. “I didn’t have personal expectations, but the topic was close to my heart, especially after studying the situation of women as highlighted in the Amazon Synod. The discussion that followed was lively and constructive”.

The passage describes a significant encounter between Pope Francis and a diverse group of individuals involved in discussions about the role of women in the Church, providing insights into the tone and dynamics of the meeting. Sister Regina, the only non-European member of the group, recounts her initial apprehension upon receiving the invitation, which was alleviated once she experienced the informal, welcoming atmosphere at Casa Santa Marta. The Pope, along with his secretary and Cardinal Pietro Parolin, was present during the meeting, which allowed for an open dialogue. The group was given substantial time—approximately forty minutes each—to speak, and the conversation was marked by a genuine, attentive interest from the Pope and other ecclesiastical leaders.

The topics covered included the roots of clericalism and the reasons behind the resistance to more assertive roles for women within the Church. In particular, the secretary of state raised concerns about the possible desire for power hidden behind requests for recognition of women’s roles. The candidness and openness of the discussion were further emphasized by the Pope’s personal gesture of returning to speak with Sister Regina after the meeting ended, highlighting the informal, respectful nature of the engagement.

Donata Horak, another participant, shared her approach to the dialogue, stating that, although she had prepared written reflections, she opted to speak extemporaneously to foster an authentic exchange. She noted the diversity of views among the cardinals, who represented varying cultural and ecclesiastical backgrounds. The discussions, she pointed out, included frank exchanges about canonical reforms and certain ecclesial dynamics, which reflected the complexity of the issues being addressed.

Lucia Vantini, on the other hand, argued that Balthasar’s Marian-Petrine principle, on which she intervened together with Luca Castiglioni, was not a good starting point for ecclesial co-responsibility between the sexes. “The reaction was varied: some resistance, some surprise, some good complicity,” she recounts. “I didn’t feel the performance anxiety that one sometimes feels when the task is solely and entirely personal. I arrived there with a curriculum of study, formation, and collaboration with other women. In the Coordination of Italian Theologians, in particular, I learned to recognize and contain the feeling of election, the temptation to speak for oneself, the desire to be ‘the king’s favorite’”.

 “Are we sure that the issue of women is perhaps, in fact, the 'issue of men'?” asks Luca Castiglioni, the male exception in the training cycle. “The good news is that this issue is no longer seen as a sectoral one, but recognized as an urgent matter for the entire Church, whose credibility today depends largely on the quality of relationships between the ordained ministers and those who have been baptized, particularly the baptized women. The problem had long been its concealment. The voices of women calling could not be heard, and the exaltation of the 'female genius' was believed to be the solution. These convocations by the Pope – and the subsequent publications, with prefaces signed by him – instead signal an awareness and a direction. He asks for reflection on how to “de-masculinize” the Church, he promotes critical dialogue with traditional arguments too, and listens to different women. Yet, even when there were only three of them, they remained in the minority in front of him and the nine cardinals! They reacted with grace, humanity, and measure, but with a voice that was always ‘heavier’ than that of their guests. In any case, they listened to unusual reflections in the 'sacred palaces.' If the initiative, as a whole, contributes to building consensus on the issue, it will be a result. Perhaps premature. It would be nice if it doesn’t end here”.

“It’s not just an issue of gender equality,” says Regina da Costa Pedro. “I am convinced that the Spirit has much to say to the Church through the word and action of women”.

“Beyond its immediate effects, this series of meetings has been a decisive fact,” concludes Stella Morra. “For the authorities of the Church to say they need to understand better and adopt an attitude of learning and learning from women is the real paradigm shift”.

by Lucia Capuzzi
A Journalist with the Italian national newspaper, “Avvenire”