The courage to negotiate

In an interview with Swiss public broadcasting station Radio Télévision Suisse ( rts ), carried out at the beginning of February, Pope Francis spoke with journalist Lorenzo Buccella about various topics, including the war in Ukraine and what is happening between Israelis and Palestinians, particularly in Gaza. The interview was recorded for the cultural program, “Cliché”, in an episode dedicated to the colour white, and is scheduled to air on 20 March.

Responding to journalists’ questions regarding the interview, on Saturday, 9 March, Matteo Bruni, Director of the Holy See Press Office, highlighted that when the Holy Father used the term “white flag” in his answer, he was using the image proposed by the interviewer, “to indicate a cessation of hostilities, a truce reached with the courage of negotiation”. Elsewhere in the interview, speaking about another situation of conflict but referring more generally to all wars, the Pope clearly stated that “negotiations are never a surrender”. Indeed, he continued, the Pope’s view “is and remains that which he has always repeated in these years, and reiterated recently on the occasion of the second anniversary of the conflict: ‘As I renew my very deep affection for the martyred Ukrainian people and pray for all, especially for the many innocent victims, I implore that a little bit of humanity can be found that allows the creation of the conditions for a diplomatic solution in search of a just and lasting peace’”.

The following is a translation of rts ’s transcript of the entire interview.

Where can we find a compass with which to orient ourselves in what is happening in Israel and Palestine?

We have to move forward. Every day at 7:00 p.m. I call the parish of Gaza. There are 600 people living there and they recount what they see. It is a war. And it takes two to make war, not one. Those responsible are the two waging war. Also, there is not only a military war. There is a guerrilla war — let’s call it that — for example by Hamas, a movement that is not an army. It is a bad thing.

But we should not lose hopes of attempting mediation.

Let’s look at history. The wars we have experienced all end in a treaty.

Some people in Ukraine are calling for the courage of surrender, of the white flag. But others say that that would legitimize the strongest one. What do you think?

It is one interpretation, but I think that the stronger one is the one who sees the situation, who thinks of his people and has the courage of the white flag and negotiates. And today one can negotiate with the help of the world powers. They are there. The word “negotiate” is a courageous word. When you see that you have been defeated, that things are not going well — having the courage to negotiate. And you are ashamed, but if you continue like this, how many dead will there be then? And it will end up even worse. To negotiate on time, seeking a country that can act as a mediator. Today for example, with the war in Ukraine, there are many who want to act as mediators. Türkiye for example…. Do not be ashamed to negotiate before it gets worse.

Did you also put yourself forth as a negotiator?

I am here, period. I sent a letter to Israeli Jews to reflect on this situation. Negotiation is never a surrender. It is the courage not to bring the country to suicide. The Ukrainians with their history, poor souls — how much Ukrainians suffered during the time of Stalin….

Is it the white of courage?

Okay, it is the white of courage. But sometimes, the anger that brings you to courage is not white.

Let’s go back to 2020, to the prayer in Saint Peter’s Square during the pandemic. You were a white mark in the midst of the darkness.

In that moment you could see the white mark because it was night time, everything was dark. It was a spontaneous thing, done without realizing that it would have had a great significance — a spontaneous thing, both the solitude and the prayer.

In that moment you were focused on what you wanted to do. But did you also realize that the message was going into the homes of all the people that were forced to stay at home?

I did not notice in that moment. I prayed before the Salus Populi Romani and before the wooden crucifix that they had brought from Via del Corso. I was thinking about what I had to do, but I did not notice the transcendence that that moment carried. I too was tried. I shared that suffering and I had the duty to be mediator, a priest, to pray for the people who are suffering. I thought about a Bible passage: when David sins by having a census of Israel and Judea and the Lord kills 70,000 people with a plague. At the end, when the angel of the plague is about to strike Jerusalem, the Lord is moved and stops the angel because he has mercy on his people. Yes, I thought and prayed about this plague: “Lord, be moved and have mercy on the people who are suffering through this plague”. This was my experience on that day.

Did you feel the loneliness in that square which was also a physical loneliness?

Yes, because it was raining and it was not easy.

White is the symbol of purity, innocence. Yours is the white vestment par excellence. Where does this tradition come from? And why is the Pope dressed in white?

It was because of a Dominican priest. He had the Dominican habit which is white. And from then on, the Popes have all used white. That’s how it began. If I’m not mistaken, it was Pius v who is buried in Saint Mary Major. That is where the tradition of Popes wearing white comes from.

What is the main value that the colour white has for the Church?

The Church uses white vestments, for example, on Easter Sundays, on Christmas. White also symbolizes joy, peace, nice things. For example, during the Mass for the deceased, purple vestments are used. It means joy and peace and is used at Christmas and at Easter.

What did wearing the white vestment mean for you on 13 March 2013, the day of your election to the Seat of Peter?

I did not think about it. I just think of the stains, because this is terrible: white attracts stains.

You had already said it: the whiter a vestment is the more visible stains become…

It’s true. That’s the way it is.

But is it also true symbolically, beyond physical stains?

Yes, stains are often clearly visible. For example, a person who is in a position of service. Think of a priest, a bishop, a Pope. The stains can be seen better there because that man is a witness of beautiful things, of great things. And it seems that they should not have stains. White also opens us up to the challenge of not having stains.

But is it possible not to have stains? You have always said that you are a sinner…

Yes, we are all sinners. If someone says they are not, they are wrong: everyone. It is true, a sin sullies, it sullies the soul. And symbolically, we can say that it also dirties the white. When I think about the colour white, I think about children, Baptism: everyone is dressed in white. I think about my First Communion — I have a picture of mine — in white. White symbolizes purity, nice things. I also think about children, of women who are getting married. White is a strong colour. It is not weak.

These are all rites of passage: does white also help in these passages?

There is an Argentinian tango in which a woman is reprimanded for getting married in white after having had a not so good life. The tango says: “What scandal, woman, to wear white after you have sinned”. That is popular wisdom… white signifies a pure soul, a soul with good intentions. Think of Baptism, of First Communion. They are symbols that say a lot.

Did your relationship with white change when you became Pope?

No, it is the same. But you do not notice it. You wear white, but you don’t notice it. I notice when I see stains… It’s a natural thing.

Is the responsibility you have to bear heavy?

Yes, but we do not have to be dramatic. We all have some responsibility in life. And the Pope has a greater responsibility. A head of state has an even greater one, a priest, a nun is responsible for witnessing. For me for example, it is more the responsibility of witness than that of decision-making. Because when it comes to decisions, many people help me here, they prepare things, they analyze and they also give me some solutions. Instead, in daily life you do not get much help. Decisions are also burdensome.

And is that almost more difficult for you?

For me it is easier because of all the help I have. If I think about the responsibility, it is heavy. But the Pope has a lot of help, many people who help him.

The Pope has many people who help him. But because he is alone, dressed in this way, as a leader, he might also suffer from loneliness. Can you feel alone in these white vestments?

There are moments of great solitude, when you have to make a decision for example. But this is not only true of the Pope. In clerical life, bishops also experience this, and priests… Even a father of a family, many times: think about when he has to make a decision regarding his children. Or when a marriage isn’t going well: making the decision to distance oneself. They are very burdensome decisions. All of us, as people, experience situations of solitude when faced with some decisions. Even getting married. When one is alone, one says: this is forever. They are decisions that weigh on us, and one could say that these decisions lead to solitude. And solitude is white. It is neither dark nor black, but it is white. There is an ugly solitude which is that of selfishness, that of many people who think only of themselves. That one is not a white solitude, but an ugly one.

There are individual stains and then there are collective stains — large stains that soil, like wars. What can be done?

This is a collective sin. A month ago, the treasurer — he was giving me a report of how things are going in the Vatican, always with a deficit — told me: do you know where investments today generate the most income? Arms manufacturing. You make money by killing. More income: arms manufacturing. War is terrible. And there is no such thing as a white war. War is red or black. I always say this: In 2014 when I was in Redipuglia, I cried. Then the same thing happened to me in Anzio, then every 2 November I go to celebrate [Mass] at a cemetery. Last time, I went to the British cemetery and I was looking at the ages of these young men. Terrible. I have already said this, but I will repeat it: during the commemoration of the landing in Normandy, all the heads of state celebrated that date, but none of them mentioned that a good 20,000 young men were left on that beach.

Humanity has an overall perception of the consequences of war, but it continues to succumb to it. I also think of you, with your appeals… Why hasn’t the message gotten across, of the number of victims war produces?

Two images. One that has always moved me, and which I share, is the image of a mother when she receives that letter: “Ma’am, we have the honour of telling you that your son is a hero, and this is the medal”. I care about the son, not the medal. They took away her son and they give her a medal. They feel like they are being made fun of… And then another image. I was in Slovakia. I was supposed to take a helicopter from one city to another. But the weather was bad and that was impossible. I made the trip by car. I passed through different towns. The people would hear on the radio that the Pope was passing through and they would come out to the road to see me. There were little boys, little girls, young couples, and then grandmothers. The grandfathers were missing: war. It is the result of war. There are no grandfathers.

There is no image more powerful than this one to make one realize the legacy war leaves behind.

War is madness, it is madness.

Doves are a symbol of peace, the sign that war is over. But then there is the postwar period, which is another moment in which all these wounds must be patched up…

There is an image that always comes to my mind. On the occasion of a commemoration, I had to speak about peace and release two doves. The first time I did it, a crow in Saint Peter’s Square immediately flew up, grabbed the dove and took it away. It’s harsh. And this is somewhat what happens with war. Many innocent people cannot grow, many children have no future. Ukrainian children often stop by here to greet me; they come from war. None of them smiles, they don’t know how to smile. A child who does not know how to smile does not seem to have a future. Let us think about these things, please. War is always a defeat — a human defeat, not a geographic one.

How do the world’s powerful people respond when you ask them for peace?

There are some who say, ‘It’s true, but we must defend ourselves…’. But then you realize they have a factory that produces airplanes to bomb others. [This is] not ‘defending ourselves’, this is destroying. How does a war end? With death, destruction and children without parents. There is always some geographic or historical situation that provokes a war…. It may be a war that, for practical motives, seems to be just. But behind every war, there is the arms industry, and this means money.

War is always associated with darkness.

War is darkness, always dark. The power of darkness. When one talks about white, one talks of innocence, of goodness and of many beautiful things. But when one talks about darkness, one talks about the power of darkness, of things we don’t understand, of unjust things. The Bible talks about this. Darkness has a strong power of destruction. It is a literary way of saying it, but when a person kills — let us think of Cain, for example — he or she is a person of darkness. When a person only looks after his or her own benefit, for instance with labourers this person morally kills other people. Or, I am thinking of a father of a family who cannot manage to watch his children fall asleep at night because he gets home late and leaves early in the morning in order to earn a wage… this person is dark, black.

But we all risk having a bit of darkness inside us…

We are sinners, and we have a bit of darkness.

Even a Pope.

Even a Pope. We all have a bit of wisdom to know what is happening. And many times we don’t understand what is happening.

It can also be a long journey.

An entire lifetime, but when you strive your whole life to do good, to correct things, you will reach a very beautiful thing, which is a happy old age. I am thinking of those elderly men and women with clear eyes. They have been righteous, they have fought… Let us think a little about old age. We can say that old age is white — that beautiful old age, transparent.

But do you think you experience these feelings now, for instance transparency, at this moment?

I try not to be a liar, not to wash my hands of other people’s problems. I try. I am a sinner, and sometimes I don’t manage to do so. Then when I don’t manage, I go to confession.

What relationship does a Pope have with error?

It is strong, because the more (much more) power a person has, the more they risk not realizing their mistakes. It is important to have a self-critical relationship with one’s own errors, with one’s own blunders. When a person feels sure of himself because he has power, because he knows how to navigate the world of work, of finance, he faces the temptation of forgetting that one day he will be begging, begging for youth, begging for health, begging for life… It is a little bit the temptation of omnipotence. And this omnipotence is not white. We must all be mature in our relationship with the errors we make, because we are all sinners.

We have spoken often about how one thing or another depends on the spirit with which it is done. White usually goes hand-in-hand with beautiful things, but there is also the risk of a fake white, of paint we use to mask hypocrisy. Can this risk exist?

There is the ‘painted person’ so to speak, who knows how to hide his or her weaknesses and presents him or herself in an artificial way. So we have this problem of pretending to… And this is called hypocrisy, hypocritical people… We all have a little bit of hypocrisy.

Society itself can be hypocritical, for instance waging war and then sending humanitarian aid…

Humanitarian interventions? Yes, sometimes they are humanitarian, but they are also used to hide a feeling of guilt. And it is not easy.

White is also a neutral colour. When there are divergences among different ideologies, even among different people, is neutrality a value for you?

Very much so. At the root of our life we can talk about the [blank] white page. We don’t say black page, green page, yellow flag… when we talk about a page on which to write, it is a white page. And every person must write their own decisions on the blank page that is life. Life is a blank white page and it will be beautiful if you manage to write something beautiful on that page, but if you write ugly things, that page will not be beautiful.